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IVS Forums->General: General Home Theater Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4 ...105  Previous   Next
HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray (Locked)
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hal9g
DVD Nut
Registered: April 1, 2002
Posts: 4,650
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Quoting Rifter:
Quote:

Now, after ten years, a very high quality, top end model can be had for about $250


You obviously shop in the bargian bin.

Good, top quality DVD players still cost a whole lot more than $250.00  For just one example, look HERE.

You really need to do some research before making these blanket statements!
Hal

My DVD Collection
 Last edited: by hal9g
Overseer
Where's my damn statue?!
Registered: November 25, 2004
Posts: 1,041
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Quoting dkny75:
Quote:
I must say that I just watched Chronicle of Riddick and Aeon Flux (not oscar worthy material for sure) and damn they looked amazing.  Goodfellas, IMO, isn't the best looking transfer I've seen.  I would put that towards the bottom of my list.  That being said, I'm sure someone else might disagree depending on someone else's setup and their eyes.  U-571 looked pretty good (much better looking in the scenes on the sub than scenes above water) but sounded amazing.  It felt like I was getting depth charged on my couch.  I have the HD-A1 set up through analog 5.1 so I can get the DD+ sound.  It rocks.

What are you using to view these?  Plasma? LCD? PJ?

Been reading alot about the supposedly upcoming 2.0 Firmware that will allow TrueHD 5.1.  Definately looking forward to that.
Gotta nip it in the bud, Andy!
dkny75
Registered: April 7, 2005
Posts: 106
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The best Oppo upconverting DVD can be had for around $200.  It's considered one of the best upconverting players for a good price.

I have my player hooked up to a 50" DLP.  It's a 720p display and the HD-A1 is outputing at 1080i.  I always wonder how it would look on a true 1080p display.
Ascended_Saiyan
A DVD Crack Fiend!
Registered: July 12, 2002
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Quoting dkny75:
Quote:
I thought the rumor was that Disney was going to release their first wave using VC-1.  There's a post over at AVS talking about that.  Of course the whole MPEG-2, MPEG-4, VC-1 codec discussion with Disney is all speculation right now since no one can confirm it.  I'd be curious to see how the first wave looks. 

As for the Blu-Ray player, I think it all depends on the quality of the picture and sound that the various players spit out.  If the PS3 offers the same features as the Pioneer, Panasonic etc then why wouldn't i just get a PS3 for a few hundred bucks cheaper and also with the ability to play games! 

I must say that I just watched Chronicle of Riddick and Aeon Flux (not oscar worthy material for sure) and damn they looked amazing.  Goodfellas, IMO, isn't the best looking transfer I've seen.  I would put that towards the bottom of my list.  That being said, I'm sure someone else might disagree depending on someone else's setup and their eyes.  U-571 looked pretty good (much better looking in the scenes on the sub than scenes above water) but sounded amazing.  It felt like I was getting depth charged on my couch.  I have the HD-A1 set up through analog 5.1 so I can get the DD+ sound.  It rocks.

If you think that looks good (HD-DVD bitrate is about 15-18Mbps), wait until the dual-layer Blu-ray titles come out at around 24Mbps using MPEG-4 or VC-1 codec (current single layer Blu-ray are about 10-12Mbps due to small space and MPEG-2 codec)!
"Yearn to understand first and to be understood second." - Beca Lewis Allen

"Anyone buying into HD-DVD at this point is just buying tickets to get on The Titanic AFTER it hit the iceberg. At least they'll enjoy the music while the ship sinks."-blitz6speed
Rifter
Freedom is not free!
Registered: January 27, 2002
Posts: 3,169
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Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:

Now, after ten years, a very high quality, top end model can be had for about $250


You obviously shop in the bargian bin.

Good, top quality DVD players still cost a whole lot more than $250.00  For just one example, look HERE.

You really need to do some research before making these blanket statements!



No, you just need to quit trying to find an exception to every damn thing I say.  Sure, you can pay a lot more than $250 - but to what purpose?  I defy you or anybody else to tell the difference between one that costs $250, and one that costs $500 when you're sitting in a darkened room watching a movie.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!"  Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964.

My Blog: Mad Gorilla's Jungle
hal9g
DVD Nut
Registered: April 1, 2002
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Quoting Rifter:
Quote:

No, you just need to quit trying to find an exception to every damn thing I say.  Sure, you can pay a lot more than $250 - but to what purpose?  I defy you or anybody else to tell the difference between one that costs $250, and one that costs $500 when you're sitting in a darkened room watching a movie.


It is easy to make such a challenge knowing full well that it cannot be fulfilled.

However, if it could be done I have absolutely no doubt that even you could tell the difference.

That is not to say that every DVD player over $250 is worth what is being asked for them, but in many cases the cost is more than justified.

It's OK, John.  In this world some people are perfectly happy driving around in a Yugo, while others prefer the Ferrari!

There's room for all of them.  But just because you can't afford the Ferrari, or chose not to spend that kind of money, is no reason to imply that those that do are wasting their money.
Hal

My DVD Collection
Rifter
Freedom is not free!
Registered: January 27, 2002
Posts: 3,169
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Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:

No, you just need to quit trying to find an exception to every damn thing I say.  Sure, you can pay a lot more than $250 - but to what purpose?  I defy you or anybody else to tell the difference between one that costs $250, and one that costs $500 when you're sitting in a darkened room watching a movie.


It is easy to make such a challenge knowing full well that it cannot be fulfilled.

However, if it could be done I have absolutely no doubt that even you could tell the difference.

That is not to say that every DVD player over $250 is worth what is being asked for them, but in many cases the cost is more than justified.

It's OK, John.  In this world some people are perfectly happy driving around in a Yugo, while others prefer the Ferrari!

There's room for all of them.  But just because you can't afford the Ferrari, or chose not to spend that kind of money, is no reason to imply that those that do are wasting their money.



It pointless trying to have a discussion with you anyway.  No matter what anybody says, you find some exception or some way to twist it to mean something else.  Have fun.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!"  Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964.

My Blog: Mad Gorilla's Jungle
Lithurge
Registered: January 2, 2002
Posts: 4,125
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Quoting Rifter:
Quote:


It pointless trying to have a discussion with you anyway.  No matter what anybody says, you find some exception or some way to twist it to mean something else.  Have fun.


Damn the pot and the kettle are having a fine old time   
Nick

Not to understand a man's purpose, does not make him confused.
danio
Registered: February 10, 2000
Posts: 65
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Quoting Overseer:
Quote:
Danio,

Did you really buy Dukes of Hazzard in HD-DVD or was that a drunken rental? 

I've been hearing nothing but good things about Goodfellas on HD-DVD and am looking forward to receiving that in the mail.

How did you find U-571?  I have that in Superbit now so I'm not to sure about picking up a High-Def version.

How do you have your audio set-up?  Are you utilizing the Dobly Digital Plus or is your system limiting you to straight Dolby Digital/DTS?


So many questions...

Yes, I did buy 'Dukes of Hazzard'.  It has it's moments of comedy...

U-571 is superb.  I don't have it on Superbit, but I can tell you the HD version is much better than the DVD version I have.  Despite the vast amounts of water and blackness in the film there is no pixelation, not that I noticed anyway.  Go for it, I doubt you would be dissapointed.

I'm not using the new audio formats no.  I have access to DD 5.1 and DTS - both of which sound superior for some reason on HD discs; less compressed I guess.  My 'cinema' room is relatively small and is upstairs in the house, so at the moment I will never get the best audio representation.  Next time I move, that will change.
danio
Registered: February 10, 2000
Posts: 65
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Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:

If you were truly in favor of Blu-ray before both launched, you will be back when the 50GB titles hit the streets (20GB more than current HD-DVDs).  50GB discs for consumers launched the other day.  It won't be long now!


Perhaps.  But I'll tell you this based on the reviews I have seen of current Blu-ray titles I will need to see a very long list of excellent reviews before doing so.  I don't fancy being on Sony's beta team.

I have seen HD-DVD and Blu-ray material.  I would say HD-DVD sells itself.  People that have seen my films here in my home don't need to be asked if they can see the difference they usually gasp and say something like f*** thats great!

When viewing a Blu-ray title I and others have spent 20 minutes swapping between DVD and Blu-ray to try and pinpoint a difference in quality... 
Ascended_Saiyan
A DVD Crack Fiend!
Registered: July 12, 2002
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Quoting danio:
Quote:
Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:

If you were truly in favor of Blu-ray before both launched, you will be back when the 50GB titles hit the streets (20GB more than current HD-DVDs).  50GB discs for consumers launched the other day.  It won't be long now!


Perhaps.  But I'll tell you this based on the reviews I have seen of current Blu-ray titles I will need to see a very long list of excellent reviews before doing so.  I don't fancy being on Sony's beta team.

I have seen HD-DVD and Blu-ray material.  I would say HD-DVD sells itself.  People that have seen my films here in my home don't need to be asked if they can see the difference they usually gasp and say something like f*** thats great!

When viewing a Blu-ray title I and others have spent 20 minutes swapping between DVD and Blu-ray to try and pinpoint a difference in quality... 

We should all know why there are some quality differences between the two format's titles right this moment (25GB to 30GB space and Universal's use of a better codec).  Do you honestly think that advantage will remain for 4 more months?  Most of the reviews that blanket the web are only on a few movies.  So, that should mean you are looking for an equal amount of Blu-ray movies to have great reviews, right? 

It will be harder for Blu-ray to get "great" reviews since a lot of the reviewers are for HD-DVD anyway.  They are no way near as critical of what the HD-DVD camp has or hasn't done (ex. The "Blu-ray drive doesn't play Blu-ray movies" articles - it's just that technology has not caught up with Sony on that one yet -- it can read Blu-ray movies).

BTW, I view movie titles on both at the retailers (just about every week).  I invited a friend of mine to meet me there (he is an HD-DVD supporter--basically anything Microsoft has a hand in).  We spent more time than that looking for differences between Blu-ray and HD-DVD titles (on the $800 HD-DVD player).  They were still both impressive, though.
"Yearn to understand first and to be understood second." - Beca Lewis Allen

"Anyone buying into HD-DVD at this point is just buying tickets to get on The Titanic AFTER it hit the iceberg. At least they'll enjoy the music while the ship sinks."-blitz6speed
 Last edited: by Ascended_Saiyan
danio
Registered: February 10, 2000
Posts: 65
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Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:

We should all know why there are some quality differences between the two format's titles right this moment (25GB to 30GB space and Universal's use of a better codec).  Do you honestly think that advantage will remain for 4 more months?


Why release films now when you are asking the general public to buy sub-HDstandard?  Surely when launching a new format you want to give it the best start? (Whatever the commercial reasons)  Would you disagree?

I will be looking for sustained proof of quality with cross format reviews before considering further.  At this point I am so pleased I cancelled my order for the Samsung player, I can only imagine how upset the current owners are...

Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:

Most of the reviews that blanket the web are only on a few movies.  So, that should mean you are looking for an equal amount of Blu-ray movies to have great reviews, right?


All currently released, from any Studio Blu-ray titles have had poor to at best mediocre reviews.  Have you seen the reviews of the pulled Robocop title as an example in the extreem?  Sony were seriously going to sell that title and ask people to pay for it?
Ascended_Saiyan
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Registered: July 12, 2002
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Danio, the "best start" has almost never happened for any new format introduced to the mass market (best start at that time...that happens all the time).  There are always problems that  pop up with new formats.  Well, one would  release movie titles before you are completely ready (with your best product) for a simple reason.  If you register to be at the grand ball, you probably won't be able to get in.  If people don't see you, you might as well not exist.  Plain and simple.  Think about the total disadvantage that would create.  It would be like there was only one format to be bought.  In turn, that most likely have at least double or triple the amount of HD-DVD players sold to date.  But, the real question is, do you  honestly think that picture quality advantage will remain for 4 more months?

As of this moment,  the BDA can say there are x amount of Blu-ray titles available.  That's one of the main reasons why they are putting out titles on 25GB discs instead of waiting 'til October (or later) for 50GB BD-ROM.  The current Blu-ray titles are still NOT sub-HD standard.  They still have 1080 lines of resolution.  The images are "soft" due to severe compression.

Wait until you see movie titles at 20-24Mbps.  At 20Mbps, people can't really tell a difference between the disc and "the master".  HD-DVD can't even think about that until 45GB tri-layer disc comes out (that's no where in sight).  You will see problems in "the master" of the movie studios if they exist.  You can't get better than that.
"Yearn to understand first and to be understood second." - Beca Lewis Allen

"Anyone buying into HD-DVD at this point is just buying tickets to get on The Titanic AFTER it hit the iceberg. At least they'll enjoy the music while the ship sinks."-blitz6speed
 Last edited: by Ascended_Saiyan
Rifter
Freedom is not free!
Registered: January 27, 2002
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Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:
Danio, the "best start" has almost never happened for any new format introduced to the mass market (best start at that time...that happens all the time).  There are always problems that  pop up with new formats.  Well, one would  release movie titles before you are completely ready (with your best product) for a simple reason.  If you register to be at the grand ball, you probably won't be able to get in.  If people don't see you, you might as well not exist.  Plain and simple.  Think about the total disadvantage that would create.  It would be like there was only one format to be bought.  In turn, that most likely have at least double or triple the amount of HD-DVD players sold to date.  But, the real question is, do you  honestly think that picture quality advantage will remain for 4 more months?

As of this moment,  the BDA can say there are x amount of Blu-ray titles available.  That's one of the main reasons why they are putting out titles on 25GB discs instead of waiting 'til October (or later) for 50GB BD-ROM.  The current Blu-ray titles are still NOT sub-HD standard.  They still have 1080 lines of resolution.  The images are "soft" due to severe compression.

Wait until you see movie titles at 20-24Mbps.  At 20Mbps, people can't really tell a difference between the disc and "the master".  HD-DVD can't even think about that until 45GB tri-layer disc comes out (that's no where in sight).  You will see problems in "the master" of the movie studios if they exist.  You can't get better than that.


You can try to justify it any way you want to, but it still won't alter the fact that there are severe problems with Blu-Ray.  All your pie-in-the-sky predictions about how good it is don't mean a thing if they can't deliver the goods.  "Soft" due to severe compression? Please.  It appears to me that one of the reasons they NEED all that extra space is because their compression algorithms SUCK! 

And please, don't dig up some article that says different.  People are watching this whole thing play out very closely.  All the web tech newsletters and outfits like Ziff-Davis are on it with microscopes, reporting every wrinkle and ripple that occurs.  Blu-Ray ain't there yet, no matter how much you wish it to be.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!"  Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964.

My Blog: Mad Gorilla's Jungle
Ascended_Saiyan
A DVD Crack Fiend!
Registered: July 12, 2002
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Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
You can try to justify it any way you want to, but it still won't alter the fact that there are severe problems with Blu-Ray.  All your pie-in-the-sky predictions about how good it is don't mean a thing if they can't deliver the goods.  "Soft" due to severe compression? Please.  It appears to me that one of the reasons they NEED all that extra space is because their compression algorithms SUCK! 

And please, don't dig up some article that says different.  People are watching this whole thing play out very closely.  All the web tech newsletters and outfits like Ziff-Davis are on it with microscopes, reporting every wrinkle and ripple that occurs.  Blu-Ray ain't there yet, no matter how much you wish it to be.

I thought I was having a dialog with Danio, but anyway...

You said the 50GB disc was "pie-in-the-sky prediction" as well.  BD-R 50GB disc are available now!  How many times can you use the old "pie in the sky" saying to numb yourself from the reality that Blu-ray is starting to come at hard and fast.  Notice how HD-DVD news has all but flat lined lately.  All they really have left to come out with their second generation HD-DVD player and a HD-DVD drive for PCs (drives have been announced long time ago but I can't find 1 on Pricewatch).  Their 2nd-Gen players will have almost the exact same abilities of the 1st.  They will have better load times.

You said "their" algorithms suck and that's why "they" need all that space.  It sounds like you are referring to Blu-ray and not the movie studios (in that case,that would be an uninformed statement, but I informed you of this fact in the other thread).

The majority of people are watching the format war from a distance.  I watch it up close on both sides.  That's why I'm trying to help those that don't get it to get it. If you do get that electronics keeps getting better until the specification limits are reached (and HD-DVD is already close to that limit), I will stop trying to convince you personally.  Just tell me you like to take baby steps instead of walking towards a better/more convenient future.
"Yearn to understand first and to be understood second." - Beca Lewis Allen

"Anyone buying into HD-DVD at this point is just buying tickets to get on The Titanic AFTER it hit the iceberg. At least they'll enjoy the music while the ship sinks."-blitz6speed
danio
Registered: February 10, 2000
Posts: 65
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Quoting Ascended_Saiyan:
Quote:

As of this moment,  the BDA can say there are x amount of Blu-ray titles available.  That's one of the main reasons why they are putting out titles on 25GB discs instead of waiting 'til October (or later) for 50GB BD-ROM.  The current Blu-ray titles are still NOT sub-HD standard.  They still have 1080 lines of resolution.  The images are "soft" due to severe compression.


Yes, that may well be true but please don't forget the incorrect framing of movies released and poor print quality on a number of titles.  That's not caused by compression.  Even if they are looking to pad the shelves to claim number of titles 'out there' to buy it still criminal to push such poor presentations.

I don't think space is the issue when using VC1 codec, I'm sure you can get 4hours of HD content on a 15GB layer - thats what I read anyway.  I believe many are now waiting to see what 'Spartacus' looks like.  With a running time of 192 minutes it will test the format I'm sure.

I can't tell you what picture quality will be like in 4 months, but, we do know what it is like now; anything else is speculation and hearsay.

Quote:

Wait until you see movie titles at 20-24Mbps.  At 20Mbps, people can't really tell a difference between the disc and "the master".  HD-DVD can't even think about that until 45GB tri-layer disc comes out (that's no where in sight).  You will see problems in "the master" of the movie studios if they exist.  You can't get better than that.


HD-DVD can pump out 36Mbps can't it?  I'm not sure where the relevance of the 20-24Mbps comes in?  Sorry I may have missed your point.
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